ASAP / aircon?

[knighty]

Yes. Newer units use R290 which isn’t an F-gas so is legal to DIY (not that people haven’t been DIY-ing R32 and R410a).

That's not right, it's still under F-gas

(I'm f-gas registered, sat my renewal class/exam just before Christmas)

not that it stops anyone working on them


but... you really should vacuum out all the lines etc. before connecting anything, any air/moisture in the system can really kill efficiency

I've heard of systems where the lines are capped and they pearce as you tighten the fittings on, no idea how good they are or if they really exist, just stuff I've heard 3rd hand

[Stinsy]

Yes. Newer units use R290 which isn’t an F-gas so is legal to DIY (not that people haven’t been DIY-ing R32 and R410a).

That's not right, it's still under F-gas

(I'm f-gas registered, sat my renewal class/exam just before Christmas)

not that it stops anyone working on them


but... you really should vacuum out all the lines etc. before connecting anything, any air/moisture in the system can really kill efficiency

I've heard of systems where the lines are capped and they pearce as you tighten the fittings on, no idea how good they are or if they really exist, just stuff I've heard 3rd hand

In America the DIY systems have plastic lines that are pre evacuated.

Are you sure R290 os F-gas? There was a load of moaning from the industry when R290 units became available. They thought jobs would be affected of anyone could do it...

[nowty]

I read around the time I installed my R32 spilt system that R290 split systems were being delayed into the UK because F-gas installers needed additional training on dealing with R290 as its highly flammable. I would think the installer rules will be more stricter with R290 because of its flammable nature.

[Stinsy]

I read around the time I installed my R32 spilt system that R290 split systems were being delayed into the UK because F-gas installers needed additional training on dealing with R290 as its highly flammable. I would think the installer rules will be more stricter with R290 because of its flammable nature.

This is what Googe says:

[Moxi]

Presently propane comes under F gas as an A3 refrigerant gas - there appears to be some changes on the continent that recognise R290's differences and this could change the requirements later this year, the UK are not obligated to follow those changes but will probably do so for convenience. I guess it depends where the AI got its information from - technically its correct but regulatory wise its less clear presently.

Until then its a bit of a grey spot which I assume is why the guidelines and regulatory positions are under review.

I read an article by Mr Hendra recently where he explained why A2A HP are that bit more efficient than A2W HP - if I can find it I will post it but basically the A"A should give you a CoP around 6 to 8 where the A2W gives you typically 4 to 6 (I think thats where JB is ranging ?)

It made sense as your'e only using the one heat exchanger but I liked the explanation as it was eloquent in its simplicity.

Moxi

[Moxi]

Hmmm now this is interesting

The F gas regulations in Great Britain report of 2022 lists all the F gases covered under the regs in Appendix A - anyone want to guess what gas isnt mentioned ?

Moxi

[Moxi]

so while al the F gas training companies mention R290 they dont need to and you appear not to require it as Stinsy suggests - unless theirs an addendum hidden somewhere in the regs that I havent found ?

Moxi

[Stinsy]

Presently propane comes under F gas as an A3 refrigerant gas - there appears to be some changes on the continent that recognise R290's differences and this could change the requirements later this year, the UK are not obligated to follow those changes but will probably do so for convenience. I guess it depends where the AI got its information from - technically its correct but regulatory wise its less clear presently.

Until then its a bit of a grey spot which I assume is why the guidelines and regulatory positions are under review.

I read an article by Mr Hendra recently where he explained why A2A HP are that bit more efficient than A2W HP - if I can find it I will post it but basically the A"A should give you a CoP around 6 to 8 where the A2W gives you typically 4 to 6 (I think thats where JB is ranging ?)

It made sense as your'e only using the one heat exchanger but I liked the explanation as it was eloquent in its simplicity.

Moxi

Makes sense to me.

With an A2W HP you might want to transfer 30℃ air to a room. Toi do that you'd need 35℃ at the rad, which would need 45℃ flow from the HP, and 55℃ at the condenser.

Whereas with A2A you blow air across the condenser directly into the room so the condenser can be at 35℃.

The challenge is that heat output from an A2A is functionally impossible to measure. I put a power monitor on my A2A and in January this year it consumed 402.35kWh. Which seems minuscule for a 5-bed house!

[Stinsy]

Hmmm now this is interesting

The F gas regulations in Great Britain report of 2022 lists all the F gases covered under the regs in Appendix A - anyone want to guess what gas isnt mentioned ?

Moxi

Because R290 is propane!

If the law required an F-Gas qualification for propane then you'll need an F-Gas engineer to connect your camping stove the the bottle...

[Moxi]

Yes it appears on the face of the regs that R290 refrigerant doesn't need F gas registration and that the majority of companies selling it and the training companies training F gas don't understand that aspect - maybe that will be part of the EU's clarifications ?

Moxi